“No way an F-35 will ever match a Typhoon fighter jet in aerial combat” Eurofighter test pilot says

Feb 11 2013 - 224 Comments

In an interesting piece by Flight’s Dave Majumdar, Bill Flynn, Lockheed test pilot responsible for flight envelope expansion activities for the F-35 claimed that all three variants of the Joint Strike Fighter will have better kinematic performance than any fourth-generation fighter plane with combat payload, including the Eurofighter Typhoon (that during last year’s Red Flag Alaska achieved several simulated kills against the F-22 Raptor) and the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

“In terms of instantaneous and sustained turn rates and just about every other performance metric, the F-35 variants match or considerably exceed the capabilities of every fourth-generation fighter,” Flyinn said.

According to the Lockheed pilot, (besides its stealthiness) the F-35 features better transonic acceleration and high AOA (angle-of-attack) flight performance than an armed Typhoon or Super Hornet.

RNLAF

Image credit: Lockheed Martin

As Majumdar says in his article, such claims are strongly disputed by other sources. Among them an experienced Eurofighter Typhoon industry test pilot, who tried to debunk all Flynn’s “theories” about the alleged superior F-35 performance.

Here’s what he wrote to The Aviationist:

No doubt the F-35 will be, when available, a very capable aircraft: its stealth design, extended range, internal carriage of stores and a variety of integrated sensors are definitely the ingredients for success in modern air-to-ground operations.

However, when time comes for air dominance, some other ingredients like thrust to weight ratio and wing loading tend to regulate the sky. And in that nothing comes close to a Typhoon, except an F-22 which has very similar values. The F-35 thrust to weight ratio is way lower and its energy-manoeuvrability diagrams match those of the F/A-18, which is an excellent result for a single engine aircraft loaded with several thousand pounds of fuel and significant armament.

But it also means that starting from medium altitude and above, there is no story with a similarly loaded Typhoon.

Dealing with the transonic acceleration:

Transonic acceleration is excellent in the F-35, as it is for the Typhoon and better than in an F/A-18 or F-16, but mainly due to its low drag characteristics than to its powerplant. That means that immediately after the transonic regime, the F-35 would stop accelerating and struggle forever to reach a non operationally suitable Mach 1.6.

The Typhoon will continue to accelerate supersonic with an impressive steady pull, giving more range to its BVR (Beyond Visual Range) armament.

For what concerns AOA:

Angle-of-attack is remarkably high in the F-35, as it is for all the twin tailed aircraft, but of course it can not be exploited in the supersonic regime, where the limiting load factor is achieved at low values of AoA.

Also in the subsonic regime, the angle-of-attack itself doesn’t mean that much, especially if past a modest 12° AoA you are literally going to fall of the sky! Excessive energy bleeding rates would operationally limit the F-35 well before its ultimate AoA is reached.

Eurofighter superb engine-airframe matching, in combination with it’s High Off-Bore-Sight armament supported by Helmet Cueing, has already and consistently proven winning against any angile fighter.

Last, the F-35 is capable of supersonic carriage of bombs in the bomb bay, but the fuel penalty becomes almost unaffordable, while delivery is limited to subsonic speeds by the armament itself as is for the Typhoon.

Concluding (highlight mine):

[…] it is in the facts that while the Typhoon can do most of the F-35 air-to-ground mission, vice versa the F-35 remains way far from a true swing role capability, and not even talking of regulating the skies.

Provided that the F-35 will be able to solve all its problems, and that the raising costs will not lead to a death spiral of order cuts, both the British RAF and the Italian Air Force will be equipped with both the JSF and the Typhoon.

Mock aerial combat training will tell us who’s better in aerial combat.

MM7274_Typhoon

Enhanced by Zemanta
  • Charles Hixon

    I think it’s mainly a close air support weapon, but there are a lot of aerial targets that a gun could be used for. Helicopters, large aircraft, drones, totally unaware enemies. Remember last year when the F-22 sneaked up behind the Iranian F-4. The F-35 will have the same sneaky value as the F-22 essentially, so it could gun down even an advanced fighter aircraft if it had total information superiority.

  • Point_Blank

    ‘when time comes for air dominance, some other ingredients like thrust to weight ratio and wing loading tend to regulate the sky. And in that nothing comes close to a Typhoon…’ *Cough* SU-35…

  • Point_Blank

    Rubbish. What ‘Unknown capabilities’ are you talking about? AIM-9X? Soon, ER versions of the AIM-120? These are known quantities. Otherwise, there is the use of the AESA radar to burn out opponent’s electronics, and in the medium-term future ram-jet missiles and possibly lasers.

    As far as ‘fixing flaws and making them better than you can imagine’, do you mean things like the non-operational gun on the F-35, the progressive down-grading of it’s ability to pull Gs and ongoing bloating weight, it’s over-heavy helmet, the multitude of software flaws, engines that quit mid-flight etc?

    These issues have been around for a lot longer than ten months.

    • Dennis R

      As of now, go look up how much the Raptor has dropped on ISIL. It has only used maybe 20% of it’s capabilities doing so (meaning dodging IADs or maybe some advanced Russian MANPAD or MIGs trying to get up in their grill etc etc etc)

  • Mick

    We don’t know what the capabilities of the F-35 will be because it has been getting such a bad rap in the media …. the F-35 and the Typhoon are supposed to compliment each other not go up against each other in combat …. I think they will prove to be a good team.

    • Roland Lawrence

      Some countries with the F35 on their shopping list will have it as their air superiority fighter. However the Uk, Holland, Germany & italy all have the Typhoon for that role. Really what we are saying is that its s $225m+ replacement for the Tornado & Harrier.

  • BarttheCat

    The F-35 will surely beat out any other fighter for speed of emptying my pockets as a tax payer.

    • SOEJINN

      The Eurofighter costs more than the F-35. And as production levels of the F-35 increase, the difference will get even greater.

      • BarttheCat

        I’m not paying for the “eurofighter”, but I am paying for the bullshit F-35, so I don’t give a goddamn what production levels will achieve.

  • Jon Wagner

    “Mock aerial combat training will tell us who’s better in aerial combat.” Not necessarily; I think actual combat is a better test.

    I am really skeptical of the idea that stealth will make up for dogfighting. The argument made by proponents is that dogfighting won’t matter, because the adversary either wouldn’t be able to find the F-35, or the F-35 would have already shot it down with BVR missiles.

    My concern is that, once AWACS and arsenal planes have been eliminated by enemy stealth fighters salvo-firing very long range missiles, the F-35 will be in danger (I’m specifically thinking about the South China Sea here). VHF radars have a good chance of locating the F-35 approximately, and presumably could then vector in a larger number of fighters, possibly led by older ‘decoy’ fighters to absorb missiles. The F-35 detects the incoming aircraft and launches BVR missiles. There are reasons to doubt that BVR missiles will be as effective as advertised, so they may have to be salvo fired. The F-35’s small capacity for missiles(four!) ‘stealth mode’ (no pylons) will be a serious problem, and for each missile you carry, there is one less hardpoint for attack stores!

    Adversary planes, after absorbing the F-35’s AMRAAMs, then use visual/ IRST (and the direction the non-stealthy missiles came from), to find the F-35 and fire long-range IR-seeking missiles, which the US doesn’t have. Adversary fighters will then close, fire dogfight missiles, and finally merge with the F-35. Poor dogfighting, limited capacity for short-range missiles, lack of a gun (F-35B and C) will leave the F-35s vulnerable in this scenario.