F-22 Raptor kill markings shown off by German Eurofighter Typhoons. "The F-22 is not invincible" saga continues.

Jul 23 2012 - 29 Comments

As the majority of the readers of The Aviationist already know, there are very different opinions as to the outcomes of the dogfights between the U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptors and the German Air Force Eurofighter Typhoons during the recent Red Flag – Alaska.

Was the F-22 “overwhelming” or was it “salad” for the Eurofighter’s pilots lunch (that recounted several Raptor kills)?

Anyway, as the following photos taken by Dietmar Fenners at Neuburg on Jul. 18 seems to show, the German Air Force is particularly proud of the simulated shot down of several F-22s achieved during the mock engaments.

To such an extent two planes boast some F-22 Raptor kills.

Hence, at least in a (possibly unrealistic) WVR (Within Visual Range) air-to-air engagement with the Typhoon, the Raptor is not invincible.

However, as already explained several times, simulated  kills scored during dissimilar BFM engagements don’t prove a fighter plane is better than another one, and are almost meaningless unless the actual Rules Of Engagement (ROE) and the training scenario are known.

Image credit: Dietmar Fenners

  • Mitch Williamson

    Yes I agree

    However, as already explained several times, simulated kills scored during dissimilar BFM engagements don’t prove a fighter plane is better than another one, and are almost meaningless unless the actual Rules Of Engagement (ROE) and the training scenario are known.

    If your talking real world both in a combat meeting Zone then my money is on the Raptor. If however we are in a Dogfight/Close Furball I’m willing to accept that a Typhoon could be at advantage.

    Mitch

  • dude

    europeans trolling hard.

    • EM745

      -”europeans trolling hard.”

      What?! Surely you jest! ;)

      AFAIK, the USAF never said the EF didn’t score kills. They said the F-22 had the upper hand overall.

      And honestly, how much are these “kill marks” REALLY worth, seeing as they were earned by EF’s flown in “Red Air” config (i.e. “slicked off as much as possible”).

      • Picard578

        All aircraft in exercises are “slicked off as much as possible”, which in translation means: no missiles, no fuel tanks, no removable hard points. Nothing unusual.

  • Jon Jeter

    Losing tends to make one improve in a big hurry ….

  • Bill G.

    I wonder why the Eurofighter guys are so quick the thump their chests and act like braggarts. They must be trying to compensate for the fact that their cut-rate socialist governments don’t let them see combat, it’s always somebody else’s job to save them from the evils of the world.

    • alex

      On first place, this is not any one EU EF guys, that is German….:)lol, second …is same that is German…..Third is Please don’t sand any more your Neo-(nazi)Con government’s military AF to fight heroic(almost mythical) battles which fights against such “potent and danger” AF’s like was Serbian, Iraqi and Libya AF’s and Etc to save the world from EVIL please…do we have a dill.

  • kikl

    “I wonder why the Eurofighter guys are so quick the thump their chests and act like braggarts”

    Probably, because the US guys usually brag that their F-22 is invincible. This is actually what the German commander said about the raptors:

    “When asked how he felt flying with the
    American jets, Unit commander Colonel
    Andreas Pfeiffer, said: ‘Its unique capabili-
    ties are overwhelming from our first im-
    pressions in terms of modern air combat,
    but once you get to the merge, which is only
    a very small spectrum of air combat, in that
    area the Typhoon doesn’t have to fear the F-22’.”, quoted from Eurofighter World 2/2012.

    So the first impression was “overwhelming”, however after closer inspection it was not so overwhelming after all, in particular in within visual range combat. So it seems that the Typhoon pilots developed successful tactics against the F-22. Once the Typhoons are equipped with a better ASEA radar (Captor-E) and better long range missiles (MBDA meteor) the advantage of the raptor in beyond visual range combat will also diminish considerably.

    This is also an interesting comment:

    Major Marco Gumbrecht,
    Director of weapons and tactics with JG 74,
    said “We were testing the electronic warfare
    and DASS capabilities over the ranges”. The
    Eurofighter Typhoons took part in eight 1v1
    basic flight manoeuvre (BFM) sorties with
    the USAF’s F-22A Raptors.

    • Picard578

      If I remember correctly, “first impressions” he was referring to was actually Red Flag exercise where Typhoons and F-22s were on Blue Team against Red Team F-15s and F-16s. But BVR missile’s Pk in these exercises is often overstated, around 90% success rate for simulated missiles vs 8% achieved against more-or-less comparable and averagely competent opponent so far.

    • CheetahFang258

      At the time this comment was written the date is February 11th 2014. In a year F-35s will be perfected entered into red flag. Then we will see who is laughing.

  • http://klabigula.wordpress.com klabigula

    “I wonder why the Eurofighter guys are so quick the thump their chests and act like braggarts…”

    Maybe because the US guys usually brag that their F-22 is invincible. That makes beating them all the more sweeter.

    This is actually, what the German commander had to say about the F-22:

    “When asked how he felt flying with the
    American jets, Unit commander Colonel
    Andreas Pfeiffer, said: ‘Its unique capabili-
    ties are overwhelming from our first im-
    pressions in terms of modern air combat,
    but once you get to the merge, which is only
    a very small spectrum of air combat, in that
    area the Typhoon doesn’t have to fear the F-22’.”

    Quoted from Eurofighter World 2012/2, page 7

    The advantage in “modern air combat”, i.e. in beyond visual range combat, should diminish considerably once the new AESA radar (Captor-E) and long range missile (MBDA meteor) are fitted to the typhoon. In within visual range combat, the Eurofighter appears to be a considerably better, which is why the typhoon must not fear the F-22 in this situation.

  • Tim W

    http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairw/articles/20120725.aspx

    Yet more problems for the F22 ! It’s altitude supremacy is seriously in doubt if the missiles don’t work !

  • marty

    Take a look at Red Eagles. Migs vs f15′s. The blue guys had it all figured out before the merge because of their radar.

  • FF

    @billy: Do you relly think that the US are saving the world from the evil???? Maybe in 1945. But today: YOU created the worst economic crisis ever since 1929,and still have 8% deficit/GDP with a Total Debt/GDP much over 100%. YOU made two senseless and useless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. You created military bases alla over the world to dominate, achieving only hate against you and all the western culture, wich translated into terrorism. Should I continue?

    • Rob

      Let me tell you as an American, you are completely correct. WW2 was a necessity. All other wars after that were total bogus on our part. We had no business interfering with other countries. America is a warmongering nation, and its one of the reasons I never joined the service. Hopefully one day we can wake up and realize we are not the worlds watch dog, and the only time we should ever interfere is in dire circumstances.

    • CheetahFang258

      …Europe relies on the protection of the U.S from the east, Like in the cold war? Or maybe now that you guys have debt you can start to blame us? Because we basically took care of you? In WWII would you have been here today had the Americans not charge into Nazi Germany?

      • Volkov

        Had the Allies been able to even land in mainland europe had it not been for Russia fighting? no, if russia was not fighting we would have been pushed back into the sea.

      • Wibble

        Please try reading a history book.

        IF any number of Allied countries hadn’t participated in WW2 the balance MAY have tipped in the Axis favour.

        As it stands Russia stands head and shoulders above any country in her contribution.

        • AmericanGuy

          Tell that to the Brits who gave Hitler his first defeat in the battle of Britain..

      • alex

        That’s why the lend lease agreement was officially titled “An Act to Further Promote the Defense of the United States”? It seems your presidents know that they need Britain to win any war. I wonder why you run straight to Britain whenever some Muslims are being ‘mean’ to you and why you cant beat some untrained Vietnamese guys…

  • GG

    @FF

    Let me guess, you’re another one of those Euro twats who is totally against the USA until you need them. Then you go down onto your knees, ready to suck them off when things get seriously desperate…Remind us how Spain is doing again? What about Greece? What about the confidence in finances of the Euro-zone as a whole? How about the crap-hole rock you hide under? Do you depend on Germany for hand-outs as well, while you protest against austerity and calling Germany’s leader a Nazi?

    Right now, USA has serious internal problems. Bush Jr created the conditions that paved the way for Obama. Obama is carrying out his radical Left agenda that will eventually hold back and destroy the economic potential of the country. Crap like ObamaCare.

  • HH

    @GG

    !!!

  • Chris

    Well, it’s not like the German Air Force will take part in any real combat. Let the babies have their bottle.

  • Tinker_Noseyparker_Soldier_Spy

    How does the Sukhoi T50 compare to the F22?

    • Richard Hewitt

      No one knows.

      We’re still not even sure how Russia-only configuration 4th gen aircraft stack up against the F-15 they were meant to counter.

  • Xero

    The f22 would shoot them down before they even got close, and if they evade the first long range attacks, the f22 can turn fly further away sneak back up and shoot again. We dont live in dog fighting era anymore, while its important to be able to dog fight its not imparitive like it used to be. Besides the f22s were flying with external tanks on their wing pylons, the eurofighters were stripped. Stealth + extreme attack range always wins. Its like the differance between a sniper rifle and an assult rifle, sure the assault rifle will win at close range, but a sniper rifle can pick the assault rifle off before it even gets close. Thats my opinion

  • Xero

    Besides to add kill marks after a simulated battle is just weird, does anyone really believe the f22 got no kill in yet you dont see them boasting eurofighter marks. I think it quite childish of the luftwaffe to let their pilots add these fake kills to their jets. Go try shoot one down for real, I can guarentee the outcome wouldnt be in their favor.

  • Guest

    I agree that the F-22 is not good at dog-fighting, In fact that is its flaw. The F-22 is only good at LRATAC ( Long-Range-AirTo-Air-Combat) One Luftwaffe pilot said and I quote “While the F-22 is not good at dogfights it is remarkable at long range aerial combat” End quote

  • EF

    Well done Luftwaffe! usairforce do the same mistakes again and again….thinking the era of dogfights is gone is wrong.