As the majority of the readers of The Aviationist already know, there are very different opinions as to the outcomes of the dogfights between the U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptors and the German Air Force Eurofighter Typhoons during the recent Red Flag – Alaska.
Was the F-22 “overwhelming” or was it “salad” for the Eurofighter’s pilots lunch (that recounted several Raptor kills)?
Anyway, as the following photos taken by Dietmar Fenners at Neuburg on Jul. 18 seems to show, the German Air Force is particularly proud of the simulated shot down of several F-22s achieved during the mock engaments.
To such an extent two planes boast some F-22 Raptor kills.
Hence, at least in a (possibly unrealistic) WVR (Within Visual Range) air-to-air engagement with the Typhoon, the Raptor is not invincible.
However, as already explained several times, simulated kills scored during dissimilar BFM engagements don’t prove a fighter plane is better than another one, and are almost meaningless unless the actual Rules Of Engagement (ROE) and the training scenario are known.
Image credit: Dietmar Fenners
- Farnborough 2012: “Yesterday we had Raptor salad for lunch” Typhoon pilot said after dogfighting with the F-22 at Red Flag Alaska (theaviationist.com)
- Photo: F-22 Raptor refuels off the east coast (theaviationist.com)
- Photo: Eurofighter Typhoon’s kill markings. F-16, F-18 and Mirage 2000 among the shot down fighters (theaviationist.com)
- Typhoons, Raptors, Vipers and Eagles at the latest Red Flag Alaska. With many firsts and lasts. (theaviationist.com)
- Libyan Air force to be re-equipped with Rafale and Typhoon multi-role fighters. And some U.S. planes too. (theaviationist.com)
- Photo: Costa Concordia shipwreck as seen from a Typhoon fighter jet (theaviationist.com)
- Anybody able to ID the new pod carried by a British Typhoon at RAF Coningsby? (theaviationist.com)
- Airspace over London now on lock-down: All security measures put in place to protect the Olympic Games (theaviationist.com)
Yes I agree
If your talking real world both in a combat meeting Zone then my money is on the Raptor. If however we are in a Dogfight/Close Furball I’m willing to accept that a Typhoon could be at advantage.
europeans trolling hard.
-“europeans trolling hard.”
What?! Surely you jest! ;)
AFAIK, the USAF never said the EF didn’t score kills. They said the F-22 had the upper hand overall.
And honestly, how much are these “kill marks” REALLY worth, seeing as they were earned by EF’s flown in “Red Air” config (i.e. “slicked off as much as possible”).
All aircraft in exercises are “slicked off as much as possible”, which in translation means: no missiles, no fuel tanks, no removable hard points. Nothing unusual.
Which is unrealistic. I read one of your articles and you stated in it “Pilot skill matters far more then aircraft performance” Then you stated “Red flag is not indicative of aircraft performance” Then stated F-22s were inferior as proven at red flag. You’re being a hypocrite.
And where did I make any of these comments? I don’t remember stating anywhere that the F-22 is inferior “as proven on the Red Flag”. While I did claim that the F-22 is inferior to Typhoon, that can be concluded through basic wing loading, aerodynamics and weight comparision.
That being said, comments by Typhoon pilots clearly indicate that the F-22 does not have any overwhelming maneuvering advantage over Typhoon, and is actually disadvantaged. But “results of exercises” is one thing, “comments from pilots who participated in them” another.
I did use exercises to judge Typhoon’s ability to detect F-22s radar, but that is a purely technical issue that has little to nothing to do with pilot skill.
There was never a disadvantage. It was said that they were even in close combat. Wtf man. what was overwhelming was not being able to get with in 20 miles of the f22 without being targeted and “killed.”
That particular comment has nothing to do with the F-22. Actual comment is this:
“If I get everything right BVR, I’m not going to get closer than 20 miles.”
That refers to the Red Flag exercises, and not earlier Typhoon/F-22 WVR dogfight, and means “I’m not going to have to get closer than 20 miles”.
Losing tends to make one improve in a big hurry ….
I wonder why the Eurofighter guys are so quick the thump their chests and act like braggarts. They must be trying to compensate for the fact that their cut-rate socialist governments don’t let them see combat, it’s always somebody else’s job to save them from the evils of the world.
On first place, this is not any one EU EF guys, that is German….:)lol, second …is same that is German…..Third is Please don’t sand any more your Neo-(nazi)Con government’s military AF to fight heroic(almost mythical) battles which fights against such “potent and danger” AF’s like was Serbian, Iraqi and Libya AF’s and Etc to save the world from EVIL please…do we have a dill.
“I wonder why the Eurofighter guys are so quick the thump their chests and act like braggarts”
Probably, because the US guys usually brag that their F-22 is invincible. This is actually what the German commander said about the raptors:
“When asked how he felt flying with the
American jets, Unit commander Colonel
Andreas Pfeiffer, said: ‘Its unique capabili-
ties are overwhelming from our first im-
pressions in terms of modern air combat,
but once you get to the merge, which is only
a very small spectrum of air combat, in that
area the Typhoon doesn’t have to fear the F-22’.”, quoted from Eurofighter World 2/2012.
So the first impression was “overwhelming”, however after closer inspection it was not so overwhelming after all, in particular in within visual range combat. So it seems that the Typhoon pilots developed successful tactics against the F-22. Once the Typhoons are equipped with a better ASEA radar (Captor-E) and better long range missiles (MBDA meteor) the advantage of the raptor in beyond visual range combat will also diminish considerably.
This is also an interesting comment:
Major Marco Gumbrecht,
Director of weapons and tactics with JG 74,
said “We were testing the electronic warfare
and DASS capabilities over the ranges”. The
Eurofighter Typhoons took part in eight 1v1
basic flight manoeuvre (BFM) sorties with
the USAF’s F-22A Raptors.
If I remember correctly, “first impressions” he was referring to was actually Red Flag exercise where Typhoons and F-22s were on Blue Team against Red Team F-15s and F-16s. But BVR missile’s Pk in these exercises is often overstated, around 90% success rate for simulated missiles vs 8% achieved against more-or-less comparable and averagely competent opponent so far.
At the time this comment was written the date is February 11th 2014. In a year F-35s will be perfected entered into red flag. Then we will see who is laughing.